The Internet Wiretap edition of

UTOPIA, by SIR THOMAS MORE

(Written in 1516.)

From Ideal Commonwealths,
P.F. Collier & Son, New York.

(c)1901 The Colonial Press, expired.

Prepared by Kirk Crady <kcrady@polaris.cv.nrao.edu>
from scanner output provided by Internet Wiretap.

This book is in the public domain, released July 1993.

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                       BOOK I

   HENRY VIII, the unconquered King of England, a
prince adorned with all the virtues that become a
great monarch, having some differences of no small
consequence with Charles, the most serene Prince of Castile,
sent me into Flanders, as his ambassador, for treating and
composing matters between them.  I was colleague and com-
panion to that incomparable man Cuthbert Tonstal, whom
the King with such universal applause lately made Master of
the Rolls, but of whom I will say nothing; not because I fear
that the testimony of a friend will be suspected, but rather
because his learning and virtues are too great for me to do
them justice, and so well known that they need not my com-
mendations unless I would, according to the proverb, "Show
the sun with a lanthorn."  Those that were appointed by the
Prince to treat with us, met us at Bruges, according to agree-
ment; they were all worthy men.  The Margrave of Bruges
was their head, and the chief man among them; but he that was
esteemed the wisest, and that spoke for the rest, was George
Temse, the Provost of Casselsee; both art and nature had con-
curred to make him eloquent: he was very learned in the law;
and as he had a great capacity, so by a long practice in affairs
he was very dexterous at unravelling them.

   After we had several times met without coming to an agree-
ment, they went to Brussels for some days to know the Prince's
pleasure.  And since our business would admit it, I went to
Antwerp.  While I was there, among many that visited me,
there was one that was more acceptable to me than any other,
Peter Giles, born at Antwerp, who is a man of great honor,
and of a good rank in his town, though less than he deserves;
for I do not know if there be anywhere to be found a more
learned and a better bred young man: for as he is both a very
worthy and a very knowing person, so he is so civil to all men,
so particularly kind to his friends, and so full of candor and
affection, that there is not perhaps above one or two anywhere
to be found that are in all respects so perfect a friend.  He is
extraordinarily modest, there is no artifice in him; and yet no
man has more of a prudent simplicity: his conversation was
so pleasant and so innocently cheerful, that his company in a
great measure lessened any longings to go back to my country,
and to my wife and children, which an absence of four months
had quickened very much.  One day as I was returning home
from mass at St. Mary's, which is the chief church, and the
most frequented of any in Antwerp, I saw him by accident talk-
ing with a stranger, who seemed past the flower of his age; his
face was tanned, he had a long beard, and his cloak was hang-
ing carelessly about him, so that by his looks and habit I
concluded he was a seaman.

   As soon as Peter saw me, he came and saluted me; and as I
was returning his civility, he took me aside, and pointing to
him with whom he had been discoursing, he said: "Do you
see that man?  I was just thinking to bring him to you."

   I answered, "He should have been very welcome on your
account."

   "And on his own too," replied he, "if you knew the man,
for there is none alive that can give so copious an account of
unknown nations and countries as he can do; which I know
you very much desire."

   Then said I, "I did not guess amiss, for at first sight I took
him for a seaman."

   "But you are much mistaken," said he, "for he has not
sailed as a seaman, but as a traveller, or rather a philosopher.
This Raphael, who from his family carries the name of Hythlo-
day, is not ignorant of the Latin tongue, but is eminently
learned in the Greek, having applied himself more particularly
to that than to the former, because he had given himself much
to philosophy, in which he knew that the Romans have left us
nothing that is valuable, except what is to be found in Seneca
and Cicero.  He is a Portuguese by birth, and was so desirous
of seeing the world that he divided his estate among his
brothers, ran the same hazard as Americus Vespucius, and bore
a share in three of his four voyages, that are now published;
only he did not return with him in his last, but obtained leave
of him almost by force, that he might be one of those twenty-
four who were left at the farthest place at which they touched,
in their last voyage to New Castile.  The leaving him thus did
not a little gratify one that was more fond of travelling than
of returning home to be buried in his own country; for he
used often to say that the way to heaven was the same from all
places; and he that had no grave had the heaven still over him.
Yet this disposition of mind had cost him dear, if God had not
been very gracious to him; for after he, with five Castilians,
had travelled over many countries, at last, by strange good-
fortune, he got to Ceylon, and from thence to Calicut, where
he very happily found some Portuguese ships, and, beyond all
men's expectations, returned to his native country."

   When Peter had said this to me, I thanked him for his kind-
ness, in intending to give me the acquaintance of a man whose
conversation he knew would be so acceptable; and upon that
Raphael and I embraced each other.  After those civilities
were passed which are usual with strangers upon their first
meeting, we all went to my house, and entering into the garden,
sat down on a green bank, and entertained one another in dis-
course.  He told us that when Vespucius had sailed away, he
and his companions that stayed behind in New Castile, by de-
grees insinuated themselves into the affections of the people of
the country, meeting often with them, and treating them
gently: and at last they not only lived among them without dan-
ger, but conversed familiarly with them; and got so far into the
heart of a prince, whose name and country I have forgot, that
he both furnished them plentifully with all things necessary,
and also with the conveniences of travelling; both boats when
they went by water, and wagons when they travelled over land:
he sent with them a very faithful guide, who was to introduce
and recommend them to such other princes as they had a mind
to see: and after many days' journey, they came to towns and
cities, and to commonwealths, that were both happily gov-
erned and well-peopled.  Under the equator, and as far on
both sides of it as the sun moves, there lay vast deserts that
were parched with the perpetual heat of the sun; the soil was
withered, all things looked dismally, and all places were either
quite uninhabited, or abounded with wild beasts and serpents,
and some few men that were neither less wild nor less cruel
than the beasts themselves.

   But as they went farther, a new scene opened, all things grew
milder, the air less burning, the soil more verdant, and even the
beasts were less wild: and at last there were nations, towns, and
cities, that had not only mutual commerce among themselves,
and with their neighbors, but traded both by sea and land, to
very remote countries.  There they found the conveniences of
seeing many countries on all hands, for no ship went any
voyage into which he and his companions were not very wel-
come.  The first vessels that they saw were flat-bottomed, their
sails were made of reeds and wicker woven close together, only
some were of leather; but afterward they found ships made
with round keels and canvas sails, and in all respects like our
ships; and the seamen understood both astronomy and naviga-
tion.  He got wonderfully into their favor, by showing them
the use of the needle, of which till then they were utterly ignor-
ant.  They sailed before with great caution, and only in sum-
mer-time, but now they count all seasons alike, trusting wholly
to the loadstone, in which they are perhaps more secure than
safe; so that there is reason to fear that this discovery, which
was thought would prove so much to their advantage, may by
their imprudence become an occasion of much mischief to them.
But it were too long to dwell on all that he told us he had
observed in every place, it would be too great a digression
from our present purpose: whatever is necessary to be told,
concerning those wise and prudent institutions which he ob-
served among civilized nations, may perhaps be related by us
on a more proper occasion.  We asked him many questions
concerning all these things, to which he answered very will-
ingly; only we made no inquiries after monsters, than which
nothing is more common; for everywhere one may hear of
ravenous dogs and wolves, and cruel man-eaters; but it is not
so easy to find States that are well and wisely governed.

   As he told us of many things that were amiss in those new-
discovered countries, so he reckoned up not a few things from
which patterns might be taken for correcting the errors of these
nations among whom we live; of which an account may be
given, as I have already promised, at some other time; for at
present I intend only to relate those particulars that he told us
of the manners and laws of the Utopians: but I will begin
with the occasion that led us to speak of that commonwealth.
After Raphael had discoursed with great judgment on the many
errors that were both among us and these nations; had treated
of the wise institutions both here and there, and had spoken as
distinctly of the customs and government of every nation
through which he had passed, as if he had spent his whole life
in it, Peter, being struck with admiration, said: "I wonder,
Raphael, how it comes that you enter into no king's service,
for I am sure there are none to whom you would not be very
acceptable: for your learning and knowledge both of men and
things, are such that you would not only entertain them very
pleasantly, but be of great use to them, by the examples you
could set before them and the advices you could give them;
and by this means you would both serve your own interest
and be of great use to all your friends."

   "As for my friends," answered he, "I need not be much
concerned, having already done for them all that was incum-
bent on me; for when I was not only in good health, but fresh
and young, I distributed that among my kindred and friends
which other people do not part with till they are old and sick,
when they then unwillingly give that which they can enjoy no
longer themselves.  I think my friends ought to rest contented
with this, and not to expect that for their sake I should enslave
myself to any king whatsoever."

   "Soft and fair," said Peter, "I do not mean that you should
be a slave to any king, but only that you should assist them,
and be useful to them."

   "The change of the word," said he, "does not alter the
matter."

   "But term it as you will," replied Peter, "I do not see any
other way in which you can be so useful, both in private to
your friends, and to the public, and by which you can make
your own condition happier."

   "Happier!" answered Raphael; "is that to be compassed
in a way so abhorrent to my genius?  Now I live as I will, to
which I believe few courtiers can pretend.  And there are so
many that court the favor of great men, that there will be no
great loss if they are not troubled either with me or with
others of my temper."

   Upon this, said I: "I perceive, Raphael, that you neither
desire wealth nor greatness; and indeed I value and admire
such a man much more than I do any of the great men in the
world.  Yet I think you would do what would well become so
generous and philosophical a soul as yours is, if you would
apply your time and thoughts to public affairs, even though
you may happen to find it a little uneasy to yourself: and this
you can never do with so much advantage, as by being taken
into the counsel of some great prince, and putting him on noble
and worthy actions, which I know you would do if you were
in such a post; for the springs both of good and evil flow from
the prince, over a whole nation, as from a lasting fountain.  So
much learning as you have, even without practice in affairs, or
so great a practice as you have had, without any other learn-
ing, would render you a very fit counsellor to any king whatso-
ever."

   "You are doubly mistaken," said he, "Mr. More, both in
your opinion of me, and in the judgment you make of things:
for as I have not that capacity that you fancy I have, so, if I
had it, the public would not be one jot the better, when I had
sacrificed my quiet to it.  For most princes apply themselves
more to affairs of war than to the useful arts of peace; and in
these I neither have any knowledge, nor do I much desire it:
they are generally more set on acquiring new kingdoms, right
or wrong, than on governing well those they possess.  And
among the ministers of princes, there are none that are not so
wise as to need no assistance, or at least that do not think
themselves so wise that they imagine they need none; and if
they court any, it is only those for whom the prince has much
personal favor, whom by their fawnings and flatteries they en-
deavor to fix to their own interests: and indeed Nature has so
made us that we all love to be flattered, and to please ourselves
with our own notions.  The old crow loves his young, and the
ape her cubs.  Now if in such a court, made up of persons who
envy all others, and only admire themselves, a person should
but propose anything that he had either read in history or
observed in his travels, the rest would think that the reputation
of their wisdom would sink, and that their interest would be
much depressed, if they could not run it down: and if all other
things failed, then they would fly to this, that such or such
things pleased our ancestors, and it were well for us if we could
but match them.  They would set up their rest on such an
answer, as a sufficient confutation of all that could be said, as
if it were a great misfortune, that any should be found wiser
than his ancestors; but though they willingly let go all the
good things that were among those of former ages, yet if
better things are proposed they cover themselves obstinately
with this excuse of reverence to past times.  I have met with
these proud, morose, and absurd judgments of things in many
places, particularly once in England."

   "Were you ever there?" said I.

   "Yes, I was," answered he, "and stayed some months there
not long after the rebellion in the west was suppressed with a
great slaughter of the poor people that were engaged in it.  I
was then much obliged to that reverend prelate, John Morton,
Archbishop of Canterbury, Cardinal, and Chancellor of Eng-
land: a man," said he, "Peter (for Mr. More knows well what
he was), that was not less venerable for his wisdom and virtues
than for the high character he bore.  He was of a middle
stature, not broken with age; his looks begot reverence rather
than fear; his conversation was easy, but serious and grave-
he sometimes took pleasure to try the force of those that came
as suitors to him upon business, by speaking sharply though
decently to them, and by that he discovered their spirit and
presence of mind, with which he was much delighted, when it
did not grow up to impudence, as bearing a great resemblance
to his own temper; and he looked on such persons as the fittest
men for affairs.  He spoke both gracefully and weightily; he
was eminently skilled in the law, had a vast understanding and
a prodigious memory; and those excellent talents with which
nature had furnished him were improved by study and experi-
ence.  When I was in England the King depended much on
his counsels, and the government seemed to be chiefly sup-
ported by him; for from his youth he had been all along
practised in affairs; and having passed through many traverses
of fortune, he had with great cost acquired a vast stock of
wisdom, which is not soon lost when it is purchased so dear.

   "One day when I was dining with him there happened to
be at table one of the English lawyers, who took occasion to
run out in a high commendation of the severe execution of
justice upon thieves, who, as he said, were then hanged so fast
that there were sometimes twenty on one gibbet; and upon
that he said he could not wonder enough how it came to pass,
that since so few escaped, there were yet so many thieves left
who were still robbing in all places.  Upon this, I who took
the boldness to speak freely before the cardinal, said there was
no reason to wonder at the matter, since this way of punishing
thieves was neither just in itself nor good for the public; for
as the severity was too great, so the remedy was not effectual;
simple theft not being so great a crime that it ought to cost a
man his life, no punishment how severe soever being able to
restrain those from robbing who can find out no other way of
livelihood.  'In this,' said I, 'not only you in England, but a
great part of the world imitate some ill masters that are readier
to chastise their scholars than to teach them.  There are dread-
ful punishments enacted against thieves, but it were much bet-
ter to make such good provisions by which every man might
be put in a method how to live, and so be preserved from the
fatal necessity of stealing and of dying for it.'

   "'There has been care enough taken for that,' said he, 'there
are many handicrafts, and there is husbandry, by which they
may make a shift to live unless they have a greater mind to
follow ill courses.'

   "'That will not serve your turn,' said I, 'for many lose their
limbs in civil or foreign wars, as lately in the Cornish rebellion,
and some time ago in your wars with France, who being thus
mutilated in the service of their king and country, can no more
follow their old trades, and are too old to learn new ones: but
since wars are only accidental things, and have intervals, let
us consider those things that fall out every day.  There is a
great number of noblemen among you, that are themselves as
idle as drones, that subsist on other men's labor, on the labor
of their tenants, whom, to raise their revenues, they pare to
the quick.  This indeed is the only instance of their frugality,
for in all other things they are prodigal, even to the beggaring
of themselves: but besides this, they carry about with them a
great number of idle fellows, who never learned any art by
which they may gain their living; and these, as soon as either
their lord dies or they themselves fall sick, are turned out of
doors; for your lords are readier to feed idle people than to
take care of the sick; and often the heir is not able to keep
together so great a family as his predecessor did.  Now when
the stomachs of those that are thus turned out of doors grow
keen, they rob no less keenly; and what else can they do? for
when, by wandering about, they have worn out both their
health and their clothes, and are tattered, and look ghastly,
men of quality will not entertain them, and poor men dare not
do it, knowing that one who has been bred up in idleness and
pleasure, and who was used to walk about with his sword and
buckler, despising all the neighborhood with an insolent scorn
as far below him, is not fit for the spade and mattock: nor will
he serve a poor man for so small a hire, and in so low a diet
as he can afford to give him.'

   "To this he answered: 'This sort of men ought to be par-
ticularly cherished, for in them consists the force of the armies
for which we have occasion; since their birth inspires them
with a nobler sense of honor than is to be found among trades-
men or ploughmen.'

   "'You may as well say,' replied I, 'that you must cherish
thieves on the account of wars, for you will never want the one
as long as you have the other; and as robbers prove sometimes
gallant soldiers, so soldiers often prove brave robbers; so near
an alliance there is between those two sorts of life.  But this
bad custom, so common among you, of keeping many servants,
is not peculiar to this nation.  In France there is yet a more
pestiferous sort of people, for the whole country is full of
soldiers, still kept up in time of peace, if such a state of a
nation can be called a peace: and these are kept in pay upon the
same account that you plead for those idle retainers about noblemen;
this being a maxim of those pretended statesmen that it is
necessary for the public safety to have a good body of veteran
soldiers ever in readiness.  They think raw men are not to be
depended on, and they sometimes seek occasions for making
war, that they may train up their soldiers in the art of cutting
throats; or as Sallust observed, for keeping their hands in use,
that they may not grow dull by too long an intermission.  But
France has learned to its cost how dangerous it is to feed such
beasts.

   "'The fate of the Romans, Carthaginians, and Syrians, and
many other nations and cities, which were both overturned and
quite ruined by those standing armies, should make others
wiser: and the folly of this maxim of the French appears
plainly even from this, that their trained soldiers often find your
raw men prove too hard for them; of which I will not say much,
lest you may think I flatter the English.  Every day's experi-
ence shows that the mechanics in the towns, or the clowns in
the country, are not afraid of fighting with those idle gentle-
men, if they are not disabled by some misfortune in their body,
or dispirited by extreme want, so that you need not fear that
those well-shaped and strong men (for it is only such that
noblemen love to keep about them, till they spoil them) who
now grow feeble with ease, and are softened with their effemi-
nate manner of life, would be less fit for action if they were well
bred and well employed.  And it seems very unreasonable that
for the prospect of a war, which you need never have but when
you please, you should maintain so many idle men, as will
always disturb you in time of peace, which is ever to be more
considered than war.  But I do not think that this necessity of
stealing arises only from hence; there is another cause of it
more peculiar to England.'

   "'What is that?' said the cardinal.

   "'The increase of pasture,' said I, 'by which your sheep,
which are naturally mild, and easily kept in order, may be said
now to devour men, and unpeople, not only villages, but towns;
for wherever it is found that the sheep of any soil yield a softer
and richer wool than ordinary, there the nobility and gentry,
and even those holy men the abbots, not contented with the old
rents which their farms yielded, nor thinking it enough that
they, living at their ease, do no good to the public, resolve to
do it hurt instead of good.  They stop the course of agricul-
ture, destroying houses and towns, reserving only the churches,
and enclose grounds that they may lodge their sheep in them.
As if forests and parks had swallowed up too little of the land,
those worthy countrymen turn the best inhabited places in soli-
tudes, for when an insatiable wretch, who is a plague to his
country, resolves to enclose many thousand acres of ground,
the owners as well as tenants are turned out of their posses-
sions, by tricks, or by main force, or being wearied out with
ill-usage, they are forced to sell them.  By which means those
miserable people, both men and women, married and unmar-
ried, old and young, with their poor but numerous families
(since country business requires many hands), are all forced to
change their seats, not knowing whither to go; and they must
sell almost for nothing their household stuff, which could not
bring them much money, even though they might stay for a
buyer.  When that little money is at an end, for it will be soon
spent, what is left for them to do, but either to steal and so to
be hanged (God knows how justly), or to go about and beg?
And if they do this, they are put in prison as idle vagabonds;
while they would willingly work, but can find none that will
hire them; for there is no more occasion for country labor, to
which they have been bred, when there is no arable ground
left.  One shepherd can look after a flock which will stock an
extent of ground that would require many hands if it were to
be ploughed and reaped.  This likewise in many places raises
the price of corn.

   "'The price of wool is also so risen that the poor people who
were wont to make cloth are no more able to buy it; and this
likewise makes many of them idle.  For since the increase of
pasture, God has punished the avarice of the owners by a rot
among the sheep, which has destroyed vast numbers of them;
to us it might have seemed more just had it fell on the owners
themselves.  But suppose the sheep should increase ever so
much, their price is not like to fall; since though they cannot
be called a monopoly, because they are not engrossed by one
person, yet they are in so few hands, and these are so rich, that
as they are not pressed to sell them sooner than they have a
mind to it, so they never do it till they have raised the price as
high as possible.  And on the same account it is, that the other
kinds of cattle are so dear, because many villages being pulled
down, and all country labor being much neglected, there are
none who make it their business to breed them.  The rich do
not breed cattle as they do sheep, but buy them lean, and at
low prices; and after they have fattened them on their grounds
sell them again at high rates.  And I do not think that all the
inconveniences this will produce are yet observed, for as they
sell the cattle dear, so if they are consumed faster than the
breeding countries from which they are brought can afford
them, then the stock must decrease, and this must needs end
in great scarcity; and by these means this your island, which
seemed as to this particular the happiest in the world, will
suffer much by the cursed avarice of a few persons; besides
this, the rising of corn makes all people lessen their families as
much as they can; and what can those who are dismissed by
them do, but either beg or rob?  And to this last, a man of a
great mind is much sooner drawn than to the former.

   "'Luxury likewise breaks in apace upon you, to set forward
your poverty and misery; there is an excessive vanity in ap-
parel, and great cost in diet; and that not only in noblemen's
families, but even among tradesmen, among the farmers them-
selves, and among all ranks of persons.  You have also many
infamous houses, and, besides those that are known, the
taverns and alehouses are no better; add to these, dice, cards,
tables, foot-ball, tennis, and quoits, in which money runs fast
away; and those that are initiated into them, must in the con-
clusion betake themselves to robbing for a supply.  Banish
these plagues, and give orders that those who have dispeopled
so much soil, may either rebuild the villages they have pulled
down, or let out their grounds to such as will do it: restrain
those engrossings of the rich, that are as bad almost as monopo-
lies; leave fewer occasions to idleness; let agriculture be set
up again, and the manufacture of the wool be regulated, that
so there may be work found for those companies of idle people
whom want forces to be thieves, or who, now being idle vaga-
bonds or useless servants, will certainly grow thieves at last.
If you do not find a remedy to these evils, it is a vain thing to
boast of your severity in punishing theft, which though it may
have the appearance of justice, yet in itself is neither just nor
convenient.  For if you suffer your people to be ill-educated,
and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then
punish them for those crimes to which their first education
disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that
you first make thieves and then punish them ?'

   "While I was talking thus, the counsellor who was present
had prepared an answer, and had resolved to resume all I had
said, according to the formality of a debate, in which things
are generally repeated more faithfully than they are answered;
as if the chief trial to be made were of men's memories.

   "'You have talked prettily for a stranger,' said he, 'having
heard of many things among us which you have not been able
to consider well; but I will make the whole matter plain to you,
and will first repeat in order all that you have said, then I will
show how much your ignorance of our affairs has misled you,
and will in the last place answer all your arguments.  And that
I may begin where I promised, there were four things --'

   "'Hold your peace,' said the cardinal; 'this will take up too
much time; therefore we will at present ease you of the trouble
of answering, and reserve it to our next meeting, which shall
be to-morrow, if Raphael's affairs and yours can admit of it.
But, Raphael,' said he to me, 'I would gladly know upon what
reason it is that you think theft ought not to be punished by
death?  Would you give way to it?  Or do you propose any
other punishment that will be more useful to the public?  For
since death does not restrain theft, if men thought their lives
would be safe, what fear or force could restrain ill men?  On
the contrary, they would look on the mitigation of the punish-
ment as an invitation to commit more crimes.'

   "I answered: 'It seems to me a very unjust thing to take
away a man's life for a little money; for nothing in the world
can be of equal value with a man's life: and if it is said that it
is not for the money that one suffers, but for his breaking the
law, I must say extreme justice is an extreme injury; for we
ought not to approve of these terrible laws that make the small-
est offences capital, nor of that opinion of the Stoics that makes
all crimes equal, as if there were no difference to be made be-
tween the killing a man and the taking his purse, between
which, if we examine things impartially, there is no likeness
nor proportion.  God has commanded us not to kill, and shall
we kill so easily for a little money?  But if one shall say, that
by that law we are only forbid to kill any, except when the laws
of the land allow of it; upon the same grounds, laws may be
made in some cases to allow of adultery and perjury: for God
having taken from us the right of disposing, either of our own
or of other people's lives, if it is pretended that the mutual
consent of man in making laws can authorize manslaughter in
cases in which God has given us no example, that it frees people
from the obligation of the divine law, and so makes murder a
lawful action; what is this, but to give a preference to human
laws before the divine?

   "'And if this is once admitted, by the same rule men may in
all other things put what restrictions they please upon the laws
of God.  If by the Mosaical law, though it was rough and
severe, as being a yoke laid on an obstinate and servile nation,
men were only fined and not put to death for theft, we cannot
imagine that in this new law of mercy, in which God treats us
with the tenderness of a father, he has given us a greater
license to cruelty than he did to the Jews.  Upon these rea-
sons it is that I think putting thieves to death is not lawful;
and it is plain and obvious that it is absurd, and of ill-conse-
quence to the commonwealth, that a thief and a murderer
should be equally punished; for if a robber sees that his danger
is the same, if he is convicted of theft as if he were guilty of
murder, this will naturally incite him to kill the person whom
otherwise he would only have robbed, since if the punishment is
the same, there is more security, and less danger of discovery,
when he that can best make it is put out of the way; so that
terrifying thieves too much, provokes them to cruelty.

   "But as to the question, What more convenient way of
punishment can be found? I think it is much more easier to find
out that than to invent anything that is worse; why should we
doubt but the way that was so long in use among the old
Romans, who understood so well the arts of government, was
very proper for their punishment?  They condemned such as
they found guilty of great crimes, to work their whole lives in
quarries, or to dig in mines with chains about them.  But the
method that I liked best, was that which I observed in my
travels in Persia, among the Polylerits, who are a considerable
and well-governed people.  They pay a yearly tribute to the
King of Persia; but in all other respects they are a free nation,
and governed by their own laws.  They lie far from the sea,
and are environed with hills; and being contented with the
productions of their own country, which is very fruitful, they
have little commerce with any other nation; and as they, ac-
cording to the genius of their country, have no inclination to
enlarge their borders; so their mountains, and the pension they
pay to the Persians, secure them from all invasions.

   "'Thus they have no wars among them; they live rather
conveniently than with splendor, and may be rather called a
happy nation, than either eminent or famous; for I do not think
that they are known so much as by name to any but their next
neighbors.  Those that are found guilty of theft among them
are bound to make restitution to the owner, and not as it is in
other places, to the prince, for they reckon that the prince has
no more right to the stolen goods than the thief; but if that
which was stolen is no more in being, then the goods of the
thieves are estimated, and restitution being made out of them,
the remainder is given to their wives and children: and they
themselves are condemned to serve in the public works, but
are neither imprisoned, nor chained, unless there happened to
be some extraordinary circumstances in their crimes.  They
go about loose and free, working for the public.  If they are
idle or backward to work, they are whipped; but if they work
hard, they are well used and treated without any mark of re-
proach, only the lists of them are called always at night, and
then they are shut up.  They suffer no other uneasiness, but
this of constant labor; for as they work for the public, so they
are well entertained out of the public stock, which is done
differently in different places.  In some places, whatever is
bestowed on them, is raised by a charitable contribution; and
though this way may seem uncertain, yet so merciful are the
inclinations of that people, that they are plentifully supplied by
it; but in other places, public revenues are set aside for them;
or there is a constant tax of a poll-money raised for their main-
tenance.  In some places they are set to no public work, but
every private man that has occasion to hire workmen goes to
the market-places and hires them of the public, a little lower
than he would do a freeman: if they go lazily about their task,
he may quicken them with the whip.

   "'By this means there is always some piece of work or other
to be done by them; and beside their livelihood, they earn
somewhat still to the public.  They all wear a peculiar habit,
of one certain color, and their hair is cropped a little above
their ears, and a piece of one of their ears is cut off.  Their
friends are allowed to give them either meat, drink, or clothes
so they are of their proper color, but it is death, both to the
giver and taker, if they give them money; nor is it less penal
for any freeman to take money from them, upon any account
whatsoever: and it is also death for any of these slaves (so they
are called) to handle arms.  Those of every division of the
country are distinguished by a peculiar mark; which it is capi-
tal for them to lay aside, to go out of their bounds, or to talk
with a slave of another jurisdiction; and the very attempt of an
escape is no less penal than an escape itself; it is death for any
other slave to be accessory to it; and if a freeman engages in it
he is condemned to slavery.  Those that discover it are
rewarded -- if freemen, in money; and if slaves, with liberty, to-
gether with a pardon for being accessory to it; that so they
might find their account, rather in repenting of their engaging
in such a design, than in persisting in it.

   "'These are their laws and rules in relation to robbery, and
it is obvious that they are as advantageous as they are mild
and gentle; since vice is not only destroyed, and men pre-
served, but they treated in such a manner as to make them see
the necessity of being honest, and of employing the rest of
their lives in repairing the injuries they have formerly done to
society.  Nor is there any hazard of their falling back to their
old customs: and so little do travellers apprehend mischief
from them, that they generally make use of them for guides,
from one jurisdiction to another; for there is nothing left them
by which they can rob, or be the better for it, since, as they are
disarmed, so the very having of money is a sufficient convic-
tion: and as they are certainly punished if discovered, so they
cannot hope to escape; for their habit being in all the parts of
it different from what is commonly worn, they cannot fly away,
unless they would go naked, and even then their cropped ear
would betray them.  The only danger to be feared from them
is their conspiring against the government: but those of one
division and neighborhood can do nothing to any purpose,
unless a general conspiracy were laid among all the slaves of
the several jurisdictions, which cannot be done, since they
cannot meet or talk together; nor will any venture on a design
where the concealment would be so dangerous and the discov-
ery so profitable.  None are quite hopeless of recovering their
freedom, since by their obedience and patience, and by giving
good grounds to believe that they will change their manner of
life for the future, they may expect at last to obtain their liberty:
and some are every year restored to it, upon the good character
that is given of them.'

   "When I had related all this, I added that I did not see why
such a method might not be followed with more advantage
than could ever be expected from that severe justice which the
counsellor magnified so much.  To this he answered that it
could never take place in England without endangering the
whole nation.  As he said this he shook his head, made some
grimaces, and held his peace, while all the company seemed of
his opinion, except the cardinal, who said that it was not easy
to form a judgment of its success, since it was a method that
never yet had been tried.

   "'But if,' said he, 'when the sentence of death was passed
upon a thief, the prince would reprieve him for a while, and
make the experiment upon him, denying him the privilege of
a sanctuary; and then if it had a good effect upon him, it might
take place; and if it did not succeed, the worst would be, to
execute the sentence on the condemned persons at last.  And
I do not see,' added he, 'why it would be either unjust, incon-
venient, or at all dangerous, to admit of such a delay: in my
opinion, the vagabonds ought to be treated in the same man-
ner; against whom, though we have made many laws, yet we
have not been able to gain our end.'  When the cardinal had
done, they all commended the motion, though they had de-
spised it when it came from me; but more particularly com-
mended what related to the vagabonds, because it was his own
observation.

   "I do not know whether it be worth while to tell what fol-
lowed, for it was very ridiculous; but I shall venture at it, for
as it is not foreign to this matter, so some good use may be
made of it.  There was a jester standing by, that counterfeited
the fool so naturally that he seemed to be really one.  The
jests which he offered were so cold and dull that we laughed
more at him than at them; yet sometimes he said, as it were by
chance, things that were not unpleasant; so as to justify the
old proverb, 'That he who throws the dice often, will some-
times have a lucky hit.'  When one of the company had said
that I had taken care of the thieves, and the cardinal had taken
care of the vagabonds, so that there remained nothing but that
some public provision might be made for the poor, whom sick-
ness or old age had disabled from labor, 'Leave that to me,'
said the fool, 'and I shall take care of them; for there is no sort
of people whose sight I abhor more, having been so often
vexed with them, and with their sad complaints; but as dole-
fully soever as they have told their tale, they could never pre-
vail so far as to draw one penny from me: for either I had no
mind to give them anything, or when I had a mind to do it I
had nothing to give them: and they now know me so well that
they will not lose their labor, but let me pass without giving
me any trouble, because they hope for nothing, no more in faith
than if I were a priest: but I would have a law made, for send-
ing all these beggars to monasteries, the men to the Bene-
dictines to be made lay-brothers, and the women to be nuns.'

   "The cardinal smiled, and approved of it in jest; but the
rest liked it in earnest.  There was a divine present, who
though he was a grave, morose man, yet he was so pleased with
this reflection that was made on the priests and the monks, that
he began to play with the fool, and said to him, 'This will not
deliver you from all beggars, except you take care of us friars.'

   "'That is done already,' answered the fool, 'for the cardinal
has provided for you, by what he proposed for restraining vag-
abonds, and setting them to work, for I know no vagabonds like
you.'

   "This was well entertained by the whole company, who,
looking at the cardinal, perceived that he was not ill-pleased
at it; only the friar himself was vexed, as may be easily imag-
ined, and fell into such a passion that he could not forbear rail-
ing at the fool, and calling him knave, slanderer, backbiter, and
son of perdition, and then cited some dreadful threatenings out
of the Scriptures against him.  Now the jester thought he was
in his element, and laid about him freely.

   "'Good friar,' said he, 'be not angry, for it is written, "In
patience possess your soul."'

   "The friar answered (for I shall give you his own words),
'I am not angry, you hangman; at least I do not sin in it, for
the Psalmist says, "Be ye angry, and sin not."'

   "Upon this the cardinal admonished him gently, and wished
him to govern his passions.

   "'No, my lord,' said he, 'I speak not but from a good zeal,
which I ought to have; for holy men have had a good zeal, as it
is said, "The zeal of thy house hath eaten me up;" and we sing
in our church, that those, who mocked Elisha as he went up to
the house of God, felt the effects of his zeal; which that mocker,
that rogue, that scoundrel, will perhaps feel.'

   "'You do this perhaps with a good intention,' said the cardi-
nal; 'but in my opinion it were wiser in you, and perhaps better
for you, not to engage in so ridiculous a contest with a fool.'

   "'No, my lord,' answered he, 'that were not wisely done;
for Solomon, the wisest of men, said, "Answer a fool accord-
ing to his folly;" which I now do, and show him the ditch into
which he will fall, if he is not aware of it; for if the many
mockers of Elisha, who was but one bald man, felt the effect
of his zeal, what will become of one mocker of so many friars,
among whom there are so many bald men?  We have likewise
a bull, by which all that jeer us are excommunicated.'

   "When the cardinal saw that there was no end of this mat-
ter, he made a sign to the fool to withdraw, turned the discourse
another way, and soon after rose from the table, and, dismiss-
ing us, went to hear causes.

   "Thus, Mr. More, I have run out into a tedious story, of
the length of which I had been ashamed, if, as you earnestly
begged it of me, I had not observed you to hearken to it, as if
you had no mind to lose any part of it.  I might have con-
tracted it, but I resolved to give it to you at large, that you
might observe how those that despised what I had proposed, no
sooner perceived that the cardinal did not dislike it, but pres-
ently approved of it, fawned so on him, and flattered him to
such a degree, that they in good earnest applauded those things
that he only liked in jest.  And from hence you may gather,
how little courtiers would value either me or my counsels."

   To this I answered: "You have done me a great kindness
in this relation; for as everything has been related by you, both
wisely and pleasantly, so you have made me imagine that I was
in my own country, and grown young again, by recalling that
good cardinal to my thoughts, in whose family I was bred from
my childhood: and though you are upon other accounts very
dear to me, yet you are the dearer, because you honor his mem-
ory so much; but after all this I cannot change my opinion, for
I still think that if you could overcome that aversion which you
have to the courts of princes, you might, by the advice which it
is in your power to give, do a great deal of good to mankind;
and this is the chief design that every good man ought to pro-
pose to himself in living; for your friend Plato thinks that
nations will be happy, when either philosophers become kings
or kings become philosophers, it is no wonder if we are so far
from that happiness, while philosophers will not think it their
duty to assist kings with their councils.

   "'They are not so base-minded,' said he, 'but that they
would willingly do it: many of them have already done it by
their books, if those that are in power would but hearken to
their good advice.'  But Plato judged right, that except kings
themselves became philosophers, they who from their child-
hood are corrupted with false notions would never fall in en-
tirely with the councils of philosophers, and this he himself
found to be true in the person of Dionysius.

   "Do not you think that if I were about any king, proposing
good laws to him, and endeavoring to root out all the cursed
seeds of evil that I found in him, I should either be turned out
of his court or at least be laughed at for my pains?  For in-
stance, what could it signify if I were about the King of France,
and were called into his Cabinet Council, where several wise
men, in his hearing, were proposing many expedients, as by
what arts and practices Milan may be kept, and Naples, that
had so oft slipped out of their hands, recovered; how the Vene-
tians, and after them the rest of Italy, may be subdued; and
then how Flanders, Brabant, and all Burgundy, and some other
kingdoms which he has swallowed already in his designs, may
be added to his empire.  One proposes a league with the Vene-
tians, to be kept as long as he finds his account in it, and that
he ought to communicate councils with them, and give them
some share of the spoil, till his success makes him need or fear
them less, and then it will be easily taken out of their hands.
Another proposes the hiring the Germans, and the securing the
Switzers by pensions.  Another proposes the gaining the Em-
peror by money, which is omnipotent with him.  Another pro-
poses a peace with the King of Arragon, and, in order to cement
it, the yielding up the King of Navarre's pretensions.  Another
thinks the Prince of Castile is to be wrought on, by the hope of
an alliance; and that some of his courtiers are to be gained to
the French faction by pensions.  The hardest point of all is
what to do with England: a treaty of peace is to be set on foot,
and if their alliance is not to be depended on, yet it is to be
made as firm as possible; and they are to be called friends, but
suspected as enemies: therefore the Scots are to be kept in read-
iness, to be let loose upon England on every occasion: and some
banished nobleman is to be supported underhand (for by the
league it cannot be done avowedly) who has a pretension to the
crown, by which means that suspected prince may be kept in
awe.

   "Now when things are in so great a fermentation, and so
many gallant men are joining councils, how to carry on the
war, if so mean a man as I should stand up, and wish them to
change all their councils, to let Italy alone, and stay at home,
since the Kingdom of France was indeed greater than could
be well governed by one man; that therefore he ought not to
think of adding others to it: and if after this, I should propose
to them the resolutions of the Achorians, a people that lie on the
southeast of Utopia, who long ago engaged in war, in order
to add to the dominions of their prince another kingdom, to
which he had some pretensions by an ancient alliance.  This
they conquered, but found that the trouble of keeping it was
equal to that by which it was gained; that the conquered people
were always either in rebellion or exposed to foreign invasions,
while they were obliged to be incessantly at war, either for or
against them, and consequently could never disband their army;
that in the meantime they were oppressed with taxes, their
money went out of the kingdom, their blood was spilt for the
glory of their King, without procuring the least advantage to
the people, who received not the smallest benefit from it even
in time of peace; and that their manners being corrupted by a
long war, robbery and murders everywhere abounded, and their
laws fell into contempt; while their King, distracted with the
care of two kingdoms, was the less able to apply his mind to the
interests of either.

   "When they saw this, and that there would be no end to
these evils, they by joint councils made an humble address to
their King, desiring him to choose which of the two kingdoms
he had the greatest mind to keep, since he could not hold both;
for they were too great a people to be governed by a divided
king, since no man would willingly have a groom that should
be in common between him and another.  Upon which the
good prince was forced to quit his new kingdom to one of his
friends (who was not long after dethroned), and to be con-
tented with his old one.  To this I would add that after all
those warlike attempts, the vast confusions, and the consump-
tion both of treasure and of people that must follow them; per-
haps upon some misfortune, they might be forced to throw up
all at last; therefore it seemed much more eligible that the King
should improve his ancient kingdom all he could, and make it
flourish as much as possible; that he should love his people,
and be beloved of them; that he should live among them, gov-
ern them gently, and let other kingdoms alone, since that which
had fallen to his share was big enough, if not too big for him.
Pray how do you think would such a speech as this be heard?"

   "I confess," said I, "I think not very well."

   "But what," said he, "if I should sort with another kind of
ministers, whose chief contrivances and consultations were,
by what art the prince's treasures might be increased.  Where
one proposes raising the value of specie when the King's debts
are large, and lowering it when his revenues were to come in,
that so he might both pay much with a little, and in a little
receive a great deal: another proposes a pretence of a war, that
money might be raised in order to carry it on, and that a peace
be concluded as soon as that was done; and this with such ap-
pearances of religion as might work on the people, and make
them impute it to the piety of their prince, and to his tenderness
for the lives of his subjects.  A third offers some old musty
laws, that have been antiquated by a long disuse; and which,
as they had been forgotten by all the subjects, so they had been
also broken by them; and proposes the levying the penalties of
these laws, that as it would bring in a vast treasure, so there
might be a very good pretence for it, since it would look like
the executing a law, and the doing of justice.  A fourth pro-
poses the prohibiting of many things under severe penalties,
especially such as were against the interest of the people, and
then the dispensing with these prohibitions upon great compo-
sitions, to those who might find their advantage in breaking
them.  This would serve two ends, both of them acceptable to
many; for as those whose avarice led them to transgress would
be severely fined, so the selling licenses dear would look as if a
prince were tender of his people, and would not easily, or at
low rates, dispense with anything that might be against the
public good.

   "Another proposes that the judges must be made sure, that
they may declare always in favor of the prerogative, that they
must be often sent for to court, that the King may hear them
argue those points in which he is concerned; since how unjust
soever any of his pretensions may be, yet still some one or other
of them, either out of contradiction to others or the pride of
singularity or to make their court, would find out some pre-
tence or other to give the King a fair color to carry the point:
for if the judges but differ in opinion, the clearest thing in the
world is made by that means disputable, and truth being once
brought in question, the King may then take advantage to ex-
pound the law for his own profit; while the judges that stand
out will be brought over, either out of fear or modesty; and
they being thus gained, all of them may be sent to the bench to
give sentence boldly, as the King would have it; for fair pre-
tences will never be wanting when sentence is to be given in the
prince's favor.  It will either be said that equity lies on his side,
or some words in the law will be found sounding that way,
or some forced sense will be put on them; and when all other
things fail, the King's undoubted prerogative will be pretended,
as that which is above all law; and to which a religious judge
ought to have a special regard.

   "Thus all consent to that maxim of Crassus, that a prince
cannot have treasure enough, since he must maintain his armies
out of it: that a king, even though he would, can do nothing
unjustly; that all property is in him, not excepting the very
persons of his subjects: and that no man has any other prop-
erty, but that which the King out of his goodness thinks fit to
leave him.  And they think it is the prince's interest, that there
be as little of this left as may be, as if it were his advantage that
his people should have neither riches nor liberty; since these
things make them less easy and less willing to submit to a cruel
and unjust government; whereas necessity and poverty blunt
them, make them patient, beat them down, and break that
height of spirit, that might otherwise dispose them to rebel.
Now what if after all these propositions were made, I should
rise up and assert, that such councils were both unbecoming
a king, and mischievous to him: and that not only his honor
but his safety consisted more in his people's wealth, than in his
own; if I should show that they choose a king for their own
sake, and not for his; that by his care and endeavors they may
be both easy and safe; and that therefore a prince ought to take
more care of his people's happiness than of his own, as a shep-
herd is to take more care of his flock than of himself.

   "It is also certain that they are much mistaken that think the
poverty of a nation is a means of the public safety.  Who quar-
rel more than beggars?  Who does more earnestly long for a
change, than he that is uneasy in his present circumstances?
And who run to create confusions with so desperate a boldness,
as those who have nothing to lose hope to gain by them?  If
a king should fall under such contempt or envy, that he could
not keep his subjects in their duty, but by oppression and ill-
usage, and by rendering them poor and miserable, it were cer-
tainly better for him to quit his kingdom, than to retain it by
such methods, as makes him while he keeps the name of au-
thority, lose the majesty due to it.  Nor is it so becoming the
dignity of a king to reign over beggars, as over rich and happy
subjects.  And therefore Fabricius, a man of a noble and ex-
alted temper, said, he would rather govern rich men than be
rich himself; since for one man to abound in wealth and pleas-
ure, when all about him are mourning and groaning, is to a
gaoler and not a king.  He is an unskilful physician, that can-
not cure one disease without casting his patient into another:
so he that can find no other way for correcting the errors of
his people, but by taking from them the conveniences of life,
shows that he knows not what it is to govern a free nation.
He himself ought rather to shake off his sloth, or to lay down
his pride; for the contempt or hatred that his people have for
him, takes its rise from the vices in himself.  Let him live upon
what belongs to him, without wronging others, and accommo-
date his expense to his revenue.  Let him punish crimes, and
by his wise conduct let him endeavor to prevent them, rather
than be severe when he has suffered them to be too common:
let him not rashly revive laws that are abrogated by disuse,
especially if they have been long forgotten, and never wanted;
and let him never take any penalty for the breach of them, to
which a judge would not give way in a private man, but would
look on him as a crafty and unjust person for pretending to it.

   "To these things I would add that law among the Macarians,
a people that live not far from Utopia, by which their King, on
the day on which he begins to reign, is tied by an oath con-
firmed by solemn sacrifices, never to have at once above 1,000
pounds of gold in his treasures, or so much silver as is equal
to that in value.  This law, they tell us, was made by an excel-
lent king, who had more regard to the riches of his country
than to his own wealth, and therefore provided against the
heaping up of so much treasure as might impoverish the people.
He thought that a moderate sum might be sufficient for any
accident, if either the King had occasion for it against rebels,
or the kingdom against the invasion of an enemy; but that it
was not enough to encourage a prince to invade other men's
rights, a circumstance that was the chief cause of his making
that law.  He also thought that it was a good provision for
that free circulation of money, so necessary for the course of
commerce and exchange: and when a king must distribute all
those extraordinary accessions that increase treasure beyond
the due pitch, it makes him less disposed to oppress his subjects.
Such a king as this will be the terror of ill men, and will be
beloved by all the good.

   "If, I say, I should talk of these or such like things, to men
that had taken their bias another way, how deaf would they
be to all I could say?"

   "No doubt, very deaf," answered I; "and no wonder, for
one is never to offer at propositions or advice that we are cer-
tain will not be entertained.  Discourses so much out of the
road could not avail anything, nor have any effect on men
whose minds were prepossessed with different sentiments.
This philosophical way of speculation is not unpleasant among
friends in a free conversation, but there is no room for it in
the courts of princes where great affairs are carried on by au-
thority."

   "That is what I was saying," replied he, "that there is no
room for philosophy in the courts of princes."

   "Yes, there is," said I, "but not for this speculative philoso-
phy that makes everything to be alike fitting at all times: but
there is another philosophy that is more pliable, that knows its
proper scene, accommodates itself to it, and teaches a man with
propriety and decency to act that part which has fallen to his
share.  If when one of Plautus's comedies is upon the stage
and a company of servants are acting their parts, you should
come out in the garb of a philosopher, and repeat out of 'Octa-
via,' a discourse of Seneca's to Nero, would it not be better for
you to say nothing than by mixing things of such different
natures to make an impertinent tragi-comedy?  For you spoil
and corrupt the play that is in hand when you mix with it
things of an opposite nature, even though they are much better.
Therefore go through with the play that is acting, the best you
can, and do not confound it because another that is pleasanter
comes into your thoughts.  It is even so in a commonwealth
and in the councils of princes; if ill opinions cannot be quite
rooted out, and you cannot cure some received vice according
to your wishes, you must not therefore abandon the common-
wealth; for the same reasons you should not forsake the ship
in a storm because you cannot command the winds.  You are
not obliged to assault people with discourses that are out of
their road, when you see that their received notions must pre-
vent your making an impression upon them.  You ought rather
to cast about and to manage things with all the dexterity in
your power, so that if you are not able to make them go well
they may be as little ill as possible; for except all men were
good everything cannot be right, and that is a blessing that I
do not at present hope to see."

   "According to your arguments," answered he, "all that I
could be able to do would be to preserve myself from being mad
while I endeavored to cure the madness of others; for if I speak
truth, I must repeat what I have said to you; and as for lying,
whether a philosopher can do it or not, I cannot tell; I am sure
I cannot do it.  But though these discourses may be uneasy
and ungrateful to them, I do not see why they should seem
foolish or extravagant: indeed if I should either propose such
things as Plato has contrived in his commonwealth, or as the
Utopians practise in theirs, though they might seem better, as
certainly they are, yet they are so different from our establish-
ment, which is founded on property, there being no such thing
among them, that I could not expect that it would have any
effect on them; but such discourses as mine, which only call
past evils to mind and give warning of what may follow, have
nothing in them that is so absurd that they may not be used at
any time, for they can only be unpleasant to those who are
resolved to run headlong the contrary way; and if we must let
alone everything as absurd or extravagant which by reason
of the wicked lives of many may seem uncouth, we must, even
among Christians, give over pressing the greatest part of those
things that Christ hath taught us, though He has commanded
us not to conceal them, but to proclaim on the house-tops that
which he taught in secret.

   "The greatest parts of his precepts are more opposite to the
lives of the men of this age than any part of my discourse has
been; but the preachers seemed to have learned that craft to
which you advise me, for they observing that the world would
not willingly suit their lives to the rules that Christ has given,
have fitted his doctrine as if it had been a leaden rule, to their
lives, that so some way or other they might agree with one
another.  But I see no other effect of this compliance except
it be that men become more secure in their wickedness by it.
And this is all the success that I can have in a court, for I must
always differ from the rest, and then I shall signify nothing;
or if I agree with them, I shall then only help forward their
madness.  I do not comprehend what you mean by your cast-
ing about, or by the bending and handling things so dexter-
ously, that if they go not well they may go as little ill as may
be; for in courts they will not bear with a man's holding his
peace or conniving at what others do.  A man must bare-
facedly approve of the worst counsels, and consent to the
blackest designs: so that he would pass for a spy, or possibly
for a traitor, that did but coldly approve of such wicked prac-
tices: and therefore when a man is engaged in such a society,
he will be so far from being able to mend matters by his casting
about, as you call it, that he will find no occasions of doing any
good: the ill company will sooner corrupt him than be the bet-
ter for him: or if notwithstanding all their ill company, he still
remains steady and innocent, yet their follies and knavery will
be imputed to him; and by mixing counsels with them, he must
bear his share of all the blame that belongs wholly to others.

   "It was no ill simile by which Plato set forth the unreasona-
bleness of a philosopher's meddling with government.  If a
man, says he, was to see a great company run out every day into
the rain, and take delight in being wet; if he knew that it would
be to no purpose for him to go and persuade them to return to
their houses, in order to avoid the storm, and that all that could
be expected by his going to speak to them would be that he him-
self should be as wet as they, it would be best for him to keep
within doors; and since he had not influence enough to correct
other people's folly, to take care to preserve himself.

   "Though to speak plainly my real sentiments, I must freely
own that as long as there is any property, and while money
is the standard of all other things, I cannot think that a nation
can be governed either justly or happily: not justly, because the
best things will fall to the share of the worst men; nor happily,
because all things will be divided among a few (and even these
are not in all respects happy), the rest being left to be absolutely
miserable.  Therefore when I reflect on the wise and good con-
stitution of the Utopians -- among whom all things are so well
governed, and with so few laws; where virtue hath its due re-
ward, and yet there is such an equality, that every man lives in
plenty -- when I compare with them so many other nations that
are still making new laws, and yet can never bring their consti-
tution to a right regulation, where notwithstanding everyone
has his property; yet all the laws that they can invent have not
the power either to obtain or preserve it, or even to enable men
certainly to distinguish what is their own from what is an-
other's; of which the many lawsuits that every day break out,
and are eternally depending, give too plain a demonstration;
when, I say, I balance all these things in my thoughts, I grow
more favorable to Plato, and do not wonder that he resolved
not to make any laws for such as would not submit to a com-
munity of all things: for so wise a man could not but foresee
that the setting all upon a level was the only way to make a
nation happy, which cannot be obtained so long as there is
property: for when every man draws to himself all that he can
compass, by one title or another, it must needs follow, that how
plentiful soever a nation may be, yet a few dividing the wealth
of it among themselves, the rest must fall into indigence.

   "So that there will be two sorts of people among them, who
deserve that their fortunes should be interchanged; the former
useless, but wicked and ravenous; and the latter, who by their
constant industry serve the public more than themselves, sin-
cere and modest men.  From whence I am persuaded, that till
property is taken away there can be no equitable or just distri-
bution of things, nor can the world be happily governed: for as
long as that is maintained, the greatest and the far best part
of mankind will be still oppressed with a load of cares and anxi-
eties.  I confess without taking it quite away, those pressures
that lie on a great part of mankind may be made lighter; but
they can never be quite removed.  For if laws were made to
determine at how great an extent in soil, and at how much
money every man must stop, to limit the prince that he might
not grow too great, and to restrain the people that they might
not become too insolent, and that none might factiously as-
pire to public employments; which ought neither to be sold, nor
made burdensome by a great expense; since otherwise those
that serve in them would be tempted to reimburse themselves
by cheats and violence, and it would become necessary to find
out rich men for undergoing those employments which ought
rather to be trusted to the wise -- these laws, I say, might have
such effects, as good diet and care might have on a sick man,
whose recovery is desperate: they might allay and mitigate the
disease, but it could never be quite healed, nor the body politic
be brought again to a good habit, as long as property remains;
and it will fall out as in a complication of diseases, that by ap-
plying a remedy to one sore, you will provoke another; and that
which removes the one ill symptom produces others, while the
strengthening one part of the body weakens the rest."

   "On the contrary," answered I, "it seems to me that men
cannot live conveniently where all things are common: how can
there be any plenty, where every man will excuse himself from
labor?  For as the hope of gain doth not excite him, so the
confidence that he has in other men's industry may make him
slothful: if people come to be pinched with want, and yet can-
not dispose of anything as their own; what can follow upon
this but perpetual sedition and bloodshed, especially when the
reverence and authority due to magistrates fall to the ground?
For I cannot imagine how that can be kept up among those that
are in all things equal to one another."

   "I do not wonder," said he, "that it appears so to you, since
you have no notion, or at least no right one, of such a constitu-
tion: but if you had been in Utopia with me, and had seen their
laws and rules, as I did, for the space of five years, in which I
lived among them; and during which time I was so delighted
with them, that indeed I should never have left them, if it had
not been to make the discovery of that new world to the Euro-
peans; you would then confess that you had never seen a people
so well constituted as they."

   "You will not easily persuade me," said Peter, "that any
nation in that new world is better governed than those among
us.  For as our understandings are not worse than theirs, so
our government, if I mistake not, being more ancient, a long
practice has helped us to find out many conveniences of life:
and some happy chances have discovered other things to us,
which no man's understanding could ever have invented."

   "As for the antiquity, either of their government or of ours,"
said he, "you cannot pass a true judgment of it unless you had
read their histories; for if they are to be believed, they had
towns among them before these parts were so much as inhab-
ited.  And as for those discoveries, that have been either hit on
by chance, or made by ingenious men, these might have hap-
pened there as well as here.  I do not deny but we are more
ingenious than they are, but they exceed us much in industry
and application.  They knew little concerning us before our ar-
rival among them; they call us all by a general name of the
nations that lie beyond the equinoctial line; for their chronicle
mentions a shipwreck that was made on their coast 1,200 years
ago; and that some Romans and Egyptians that were in the
ship, getting safe ashore, spent the rest of their days among
them; and such was their ingenuity, that from this single op-
portunity they drew the advantage of learning from those
unlooked-for guests, and acquired all the useful arts that were
then among the Romans, and which were known to these ship-
wrecked men: and by the hints that they gave them, they them-
selves found out even some of those arts which they could not
fully explain; so happily did they improve that accident, of
having some of our people cast upon their shore.

   "But if such an accident has at any time brought any from
thence into Europe, we have been so far from improving it, that
we do not so much as remember it; as in after-times perhaps it
will be forgot by our people that I was ever there.  For though
they from one such accident made themselves masters of all
the good inventions that were among us; yet I believe it would
be long before we should learn or put in practice any of the
good institutions that are among them.  And this is the true
cause of their being better governed, and living happier than
we, though we come not short of them in point of understand-
ing or outward advantages."

   Upon this I said to him: "I earnestly beg you would de-
scribe that island very particularly to us.  Be not too short,
but set out in order all things relating to their soil, their rivers,
their towns, their people, their manners, constitution, laws,
and, in a word, all that you imagine we desire to know.  And
you may well imagine that we desire to know everything con-
cerning them, of which we are hitherto ignorant."

   "I will do it very willingly," said he, "for I have digested
the whole matter carefully; but it will take up some time."

   "Let us go then," said I, "first and dine, and then we shall
have leisure enough."

   He consented.  We went in and dined, and after dinner came
back and sat down in the same place.  I ordered my servants to
take care that none might come and interrupt us.  And both
Peter and I desired Raphael to be as good as his word.  When
he saw that we were very intent upon it, he paused a little to
recollect himself, and began in this manner: